(Author's note: Today's post is a discussion concerning the nature of church, specifically my experience with and opinions on it. Apologies in advance to all for who this is not a "relevant" post - to a great extent, this is the proverbial "inside baseball".)
The conversation between Uisdean Ruadh which actually seems to have created a great deal of fodder for my mind occurred, as has been referenced earlier, on the traditional Eating of Frozen Yogurt following our Friday dinner and stroll.
I had asked him about the number of attendees at the Stations of The Cross (30-40) and if that was "average"; he stated that it was. I asked him why he thought that was the case. What transpired from that initial question was a fundamental question about the nature and purpose of the Church itself.
His initial theory was a combination of the post-results of The Plague and laziness -which, I said, I could agree with. And I told him that I thought that most mainline Protestant churches would likely have a similar turn out given the circumstances. But then I compared it with the church we attend currently which, if they were to announce that they were having a stand alone "Worship Night" (song and prayer) would come close to filling the Sanctuary (300 or so seats).
How is it, I wondered, that there could be such a difference?
And why, we wondered, do people go to church?
My thought was that people go to church to have an encounter with God in a way that they cannot have it any other way. Yes, I understand the importance of corporate worship (especially in times where we feel isolated) and (depending on your strand of Christianity) the nature of certain activities (communion, for example) that can be done no other way - but for something to become more than a duty, like trudging off to work can become for many, there has to be something that draws people back.
That thing, I would argue, is an encounter with God.
If that is the case, what is it that makes some places have more of that sense of "encounter" and other places a sense of "duty"?
I wish I knew. For myself, if that is helpful, I find those sorts of encounters with God in two places: the first in Nature of course (with The Ranch largely fitting into that construct), the second in the equivalent of "High Church" (as we used to call it in the days of yore). There is something about ceremony and the sense of otherworldliness that helps to lift my mind above the commonality of the daily living
(In the vein of high church, for years Uisdean Ruadh and I have argued about what sort of monk I would be, were I to be one. He things Benedictine, I counter with Cistercian. Neither are likely of course, but it is amusing to see someone else's take on me.)
Which probably gets to the reason that people do not feel like they are encountering God: the church - be it Catholic or Mainline Protestant or even other - is a great deal like the world right now. That cuts both ways of course: I would argue that the modern church has a great deal more emotionalism and modern "show-like" tendencies (lights, music, etc.) which allows be to feel emotionally moved (music will do that for us) but also puts the experience at risk when the emotions die or the "style" of worship no longer reflects the current trends of society. And at least for Catholicism (from the little bit I have attended), Vatican II style worship has none of the grandeur of the Tridentine Mass.
But engaging the emotions - in anything - is a way to pull people in. And engaging our emotions and our minds to lift them up to God should be a primary calling of any denomination. How is it that the church has failed to engage its congregation in the vastness and glory of God?
I do not have answers of course, beyond really asking myself the question of "Why do I attend church?" - or if not as much as I used to, "Why not?" (and I think I know the answer there). What I do wonder is if the churches themselves - Catholic, Orthodox, Mainline Protestant, Non-denominational - are asking themselves the same question.
Because it seems to my fairly un-theologically educated mind that if people are not encountering God in the current manifestation of the church, that might be something worthy of consideration.
Its been a while since I attended a church service. I've become lazy and watch a televised mass on Sunday mornings, rather than get dressed and go to our service.
ReplyDeleteSome of the reason is a conflict of what they service asks us to pray for. I don't mind and even condone praying for ALL PEOPLE who require divine guidance and intervention. But to be asked to pointedly pray for certain groups over others - no, I don't like that. And in fact when asked to, I stay silent and silently pray for them all.
I went to the service to feel like we all were praying for the common good. But then felt fractured with these requests.
I must be peculiar.
Anonymous - It has overall been a while since I have been as well, if that makes you feel any better. Honestly, I have just not felt the urge - although the few times I have gone in and served, I have been excited to be there.
DeleteI do think messaging and prayer requests have a part. Once upon a time, to your point, there were very general prayers. And then in some cases (smaller churches), there was a time for very specific prayer requests said by individuals. But the Church picking certain things and people to pray for over others does have a feeling of the Church "picking favorites".
In a lot of ways, I wish we simply would go back to the preaching of God's word, as it is in the Bible. Somehow that seemed to work okay for 2,000 years, before the last 30 or so suggested we needed to do something "different" and "topical".
I doubt there are even 30 people in our church that attended the Stations of the Cross. On a normal Sunday morning mass, there will be about 150 people and yet I would bet next weekend will be standing room only at around 350 to 400 people. (This is only one of three masses every weekend.)
ReplyDeleteI think the reason people aren't attending is because the church is having to compete more for their attention on Sunday. Even as late as my youth, there wasn't a lot one could do on a Sunday. Most businesses were closed. Your choice was to stay at home, visit others not in church or go to church. These days, the only thing that really sets apart Sunday in the business world is a slight reduction in hours open. Thus the church has to compete and it hasn't done so well, except on holidays like Easter where many businesses do close and thus our church will be full again with "Cafeteria Catholics" as us regulars call them.
Ed, similar experience at every mainline denomination I have ever attended.
DeleteI do think that there is some level of competition with other events/goings on. At the same time, I wonder if the Church has not also done a good job of why it indispensable - after all, people spend all kinds of time and money on self help, and the Church can offer that in spades.
Also, I have always felt for priests and pastors that preach on Christmas and Easter. Every year, you get a group of people that only come once or twice a year - how do you craft a message for that event that is both useful to the regular members and touches the occasionals?
Church was always a given with me. After I came to know Jesus, I was always there for services. I more fully learned Who He is and found friendship and encouragement with the other folks. I was challenged to grow and live out what I learned. I saw the others live out their beliefs. It was a friendly place. I was accepted by my brothers and sisters. Even when we had a disagreement, we could be agreeable about it. And there were opportunities to develop my gifts. (Things God specifically put in me to exercise on His behalf).
ReplyDeleteThe world seems to have a better show than church does. And it's easily accessable, right in your TV (or various definitions of TV). It makes no demands on you, even if it leaves you flat, you aren't required to "do" anything but look on.
Church is where you get the encouragement to keep trucking, a renewed focus on what's important. And it requires effort to get to, on a weekend, after too much stimulation the day before.
I have strong opinions on emotional services. There can be spontaneous emotion, but anything that is geared to generate that is a show. Worship for me, is a very close to the vest thing. It rarely happens in public. It's almost like no one else even exists.
My emotions are fairly shallow. I can get teary eyed at a picture or a story or a song. I don't think that God works His deepest work in the shallowest part of my "pool".
With 2000 Farce Book friends, and all the media you can consume at your finger tips, why get dressed and drive to church? Especially if church has become another club and not a place to meet God's family on earth and learn to do what He wants you to do?
Nearly 15 years ago, God seemed to be saying to me that home churches were where He wanted me to move toward. Smaller, intimate groups of close knit believers. Like Acts in a way. Living out the Gospel together day by day. Meeting together with other like minded groups for a larger church meeting every few weeks, but the smaller unit working together day by day. Like a large family. I kinda got stalled out looking for a group to align with for accountability. But that is my heart's desire.
STxAR, we were very regular and involved - really right up to The Plague. After that, we do not have seemed nearly inclined. Not sure why: The people are quiet friendly and caring, the message is certainly nothing unbiblical, and yet I find I have a lack of passion for attendance.
DeleteFor myself anyway, I find I want a deeper knowledge and experience of God - and I am surely not finding it now.
Certainly for the persecuted church, there is no choice but home churches. And yet such churches seem far stronger than anything we have in the "free" world.
I need corporate worship. I've had several 1-2 year periods in my life that I didn't attend and they each taught me (in differing ways) that I needed to go back. The service I regularly attend meets early in the morning and there are seldom more than a dozen of us present, if that. (one Sunday I was the only one there!) I need it, though, and I'm glad our rector is willing to serve our small group.
ReplyDeleteKelli, I did not attend for several years after I left for college, yet found my way back after I returned home. I do find that on the whole, I prefer smaller churches where I know a great many people than larger ones where I know very few. Perhaps it is just finding the right church.
DeleteI don't attend but have always consider myself Catholic. When we moved I decided to start attending the local church. A male friend, also a 'fallen away' Catholic and I went to a Sunday mass. Now, I was raised in a Catholic home but uncle was a store front Baptist preacher, no drinking, movies, lipstick and Lutheran step family. So off we go and was met, not with a solemn quiet mass but a raucous guitar strumming, tambourine shaking, cymbals crashing singing. Everyone had something to say and the priest had his 10 minutes. Asked us to pray for a few special groups. Likened conservatives to Nazi, maligned the Jews. Walked out when done and haven't been back since. That's not the church I grew up in and want no part of this one. Worst thing that ever happened was getting rid of the Latin mass. I talk to G-D all the time. I don't need the church for that.
ReplyDeleteGlasslass - This sounds a great deal like many churches I know of (at least in the worship sense). And churches have taken sides where they need not (I will say our current church has been very careful about threading that needle). But I also think that the church "choosing sides" has created part of the problem we are in. Instead of starting from the Bible, we are starting anywhere but the Bible. I can certainly understand why you would not want to go back.
DeleteUisdean Ruadh keeps me well supplied with Tridentine Mass related items and prayer cards.
Please ask your friend if he ever participated in block rosary's and does that his area every have the Latin mass?
DeleteGL, Uisdean Ruadh actually runs the weekly Rosary for his Knights of Columbus post. I do not recall if they have a Latin mass there on a regular basis, but I do know that he and I have been to at least one at his parish.
DeleteThe church exists because God created it. As I understand the New Testament, the church is the bride of Christ. It's a mystery, one I'm not sure I understand any better than I did when I started attending church as a child. But best I can tell, the church that started in the Book of Acts is as close as I can get for an example of what the church is supposed to be. I concede, however, it can take any number of manifestations. And I'm fine with that.
ReplyDeleteMany people are looking for the perfect church. News flash -- they will never find it.
For most of my adult life, I've been part of a church that would be considered part of the Evangelical fold. Because of the connotations and political implications that term has come to have related to it, I don't like the label, and when I get into the heart of what I believe and my preferred practices, I'm not sure I fit in so much anymore. But it's the place where my wife and I worship together and have many friends. It's not perfect by a long stretch -- but in a mysterious way, it's home.
We started "going" online during the pandemic and at times we still do. But I know I need to be there in person when I can get there.
Bob, the perfect church probably ended just about the time that Peter preached and the church gained 3,000 souls in day. Everything after that, I suspect, has somewhat been downhill..
DeleteIt is interesting. I am not even sure what "Evangelical" means anymore, just as I am often have trouble explaining the concept of "non-denominational" to the Catholic Uisdean Ruadh. In some meaningful ways, they are simply constructs of an age where they were different from the then established church.
A funny thought, now that you make me think of it: Recently I have been far happier serving (at the coffee bar) that I am about physically going. Not really sure what that says about my relationship with the church, but that does strike me as odd.
Honestly, I have never felt as connected to the churches here since we moved in 2009. Good people, good churches - but the connection simply has not been the same.
Your article touched home for me. We left our large church, where I actually felt very close to God at times, after noticing leftist editorials in our local paper. I also noticed that our “sub-charities” were actually outright illegal. They were taking immigrants from the border to “safe houses”! I haven’t been back since.
ReplyDeleteWe then tried another church, but after the Paster started crying on stage and resigned because of personal struggles, only to find that his replacement was a female who focused on feelings, and emotions. We had to leave,
Would like to go somewhere welcoming, that understands our struggles dealing with the world as a Christian. One that offers biblical grounding and helps to build character.
One where I can contribute meaningfully to helping others that are in our congregation before even thinking about Africa, or the country of the day.
Cache, I am of two minds on the matter. On the one hand the Church's primary calling is to "make disciples" (our Master's instruction, not anyone else's) and that is where our focus should be. On the other hand, the Church cannot be completely divorced from the world in which it lives. There is a fine balance, which everyone usually gets wrong somehow.
DeleteWhat you are proposing as a church is in fact what the Church was meant to be. I suspect - and this is only a personal opinion - that a smaller congregation may be more amenable to what you are seeking, if such can be found in your area.
I do have to admit that I have become a lot more open to checking other churches out over a longer period of time before I commit to one.
Thanks for stopping by!
There is a reason(s) the Orthodox kicked out the catholics.
ReplyDeleteI am currently reading The Orthodox Church by Kallistos Ware, and I think he (and I) would define it as "kicking out" the Catholics. The ultimate disagreement that manifested itself had a rather long history leading up to it - at least 400 years - and Ware finds fault on both side (to some extent, the Catholics of the day would, I suspect, view it the other way).
DeleteWhich expresses one of my other underlying issues: the Church in its history has spent far more time fighting itself for not necessarily a vision of Christ and His Gospel as much as for power and the right to dictate what that Gospel is.