Yeah, it's funny. I struggle with the Christian notion that pride is bad, too. I mean, excessive pride is bad, yes, but should I not be proud of myself and my accomplishments? If I worked hard and struggled towards a goal that I eventually achieved, why should that not be celebrated? Is it OK to be prideful if I 'give all glory to God'? Or is that the source and reason for the phrase (cop out - I can be prideful if I give that pride away)? These are the types of questions I wrestled with as a youth and led me away from The Church (*Capital T, Capital C*). I never understood "original sin", nor several other idea's like that (e.g. pride). I can see why controlling these things so they don't become excessive is a good thing, but pride itself being outright harmful and evil..? Nah, don't buy it. It's kinda the opposite of humility, so I see these two issues as hand-in-hand. Humility = anti-pride.
I personally think that it is the extremes that lead us astray. To be proud of a life of service - To God, to Family to my community is a wonderful thing. Unless my Pride leads me to look down on others, and consider myself to be above my fellow man, and eventually on par with the god I have constructed in my vanity. Humility is a wonderful check on these base urges, but false humility can lead astray as well. MSG Grumpy
IMHO, being proud of accomplishments is NOT the same as being PRIDEFUL as discussed in the Bible. From my experience the most prideful people that I have dealt with are also the most ignorant - you have met them: the know it all's that have never gotten up off their asses and done anything, but know everything - that is an example of prideful IMHO.
All - Thanks the for the thoughtful question JohnD, and the thoughtful answers provided (Sincerely. Thanks. Discussions like this do not always go so well out on the InterWeb).
If I had to give an answer, I do not think I could do better than C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity. To paraphrase him, he differentiates between taking pride in something - a good work, a well done job, a child that has excelled - and then going the next step to say "Oh, look how good I am to have done this great thing". That, in his mind, is where the discussion turns: We turn from the thing done or accomplished to focusing on ourselves, and that is where the issue lies.
At the end of that particular chapter, he describes the humble person. He notes that you not know them from their appearance: they will not come across shabby or ill-kempt or any of the many things our modern world associates with "humble". They would, he said, be intensely interested in you and what you were saying - and they would genuinely be enjoying themselves in the conversation. What you would realize after the fact is likely they had not mentioned themselves at all. Which, Lewis says, is the point: they do not think of themselves (in that sense) at all, only the other they are engaged with.
JohnD, if it helps, I struggle with this mightily as well. I suspect most Christians do. We are very much about "us".
In all of our efforts we fall short of working our way to Heaven, Yet it is only in falling to our knees that we get closer to the Lord above. This is a Lovely quote and bears some rumination in this troubled world. God Bless and keep you close MSG Grumpy
Thanks TB for this discussion. You inspired me to take action and do some research. Given your CS Lewis reference, I oogled further in that direction, and found https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/pride-and-humility/. Pretty in-depth and worthy of further thought.
Comments are welcome (and necessary, for good conversation). If you could take the time to be kind and not practice profanity, it would be appreciated. Thanks for posting!
And so, how does one develop humility? I have a very hard time with this one.
ReplyDeleteJohnD
Yeah, it's funny. I struggle with the Christian notion that pride is bad, too. I mean, excessive pride is bad, yes, but should I not be proud of myself and my accomplishments? If I worked hard and struggled towards a goal that I eventually achieved, why should that not be celebrated? Is it OK to be prideful if I 'give all glory to God'? Or is that the source and reason for the phrase (cop out - I can be prideful if I give that pride away)?
DeleteThese are the types of questions I wrestled with as a youth and led me away from The Church (*Capital T, Capital C*). I never understood "original sin", nor several other idea's like that (e.g. pride). I can see why controlling these things so they don't become excessive is a good thing, but pride itself being outright harmful and evil..? Nah, don't buy it.
It's kinda the opposite of humility, so I see these two issues as hand-in-hand. Humility = anti-pride.
I personally think that it is the extremes that lead us astray.
DeleteTo be proud of a life of service - To God, to Family to my community is a wonderful thing.
Unless my Pride leads me to look down on others, and consider myself to be above my fellow man, and eventually on par with the god I have constructed in my vanity.
Humility is a wonderful check on these base urges, but false humility can lead astray as well.
MSG Grumpy
IMHO, being proud of accomplishments is NOT the same as being PRIDEFUL as discussed in the Bible. From my experience the most prideful people that I have dealt with are also the most ignorant - you have met them: the know it all's that have never gotten up off their asses and done anything, but know everything - that is an example of prideful IMHO.
DeleteAll - Thanks the for the thoughtful question JohnD, and the thoughtful answers provided (Sincerely. Thanks. Discussions like this do not always go so well out on the InterWeb).
DeleteIf I had to give an answer, I do not think I could do better than C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity. To paraphrase him, he differentiates between taking pride in something - a good work, a well done job, a child that has excelled - and then going the next step to say "Oh, look how good I am to have done this great thing". That, in his mind, is where the discussion turns: We turn from the thing done or accomplished to focusing on ourselves, and that is where the issue lies.
At the end of that particular chapter, he describes the humble person. He notes that you not know them from their appearance: they will not come across shabby or ill-kempt or any of the many things our modern world associates with "humble". They would, he said, be intensely interested in you and what you were saying - and they would genuinely be enjoying themselves in the conversation. What you would realize after the fact is likely they had not mentioned themselves at all. Which, Lewis says, is the point: they do not think of themselves (in that sense) at all, only the other they are engaged with.
JohnD, if it helps, I struggle with this mightily as well. I suspect most Christians do. We are very much about "us".
Amen! I'll be meditating on this one for the rest of the day.
ReplyDeleteLeigh, me too. I have not heard of Abba Moses before, but I am re-reading The Sayings of Desert Fathers - and man, what challenging words are there.
DeleteIn all of our efforts we fall short of working our way to Heaven,
ReplyDeleteYet it is only in falling to our knees that we get closer to the Lord above.
This is a Lovely quote and bears some rumination in this troubled world.
God Bless and keep you close
MSG Grumpy
Thank you MSG Grumpy, and thank you so very much for stopping by.
DeleteYou selected a doozy to ponder on this Day of Rest TB, guess I'll just have to put the feet up today to do that........ :)
ReplyDeleteI am here to help, Nylon12! Glad to be of assistance!
DeleteExcellent. Humility is a wonderful invention.
ReplyDeleteIt is an excellent invention John - and one we so often fail to put into practice.
DeleteThanks TB for this discussion. You inspired me to take action and do some research. Given your CS Lewis reference, I oogled further in that direction, and found https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/pride-and-humility/. Pretty in-depth and worthy of further thought.
ReplyDeleteJohnD
What a great link, JohnD. Thank you so much for sharing!
Delete