(Editor's note: I will be traveling between today and next Monday to participate in a training seminar with my headmaster; responses may be delayed.)
Oh, once upon a time I was worse: 20 to 15 years ago, brash and full of "right" thinking, I was (uncharacteristically now for me, anyway) willing to have a go online with people. I was never very good at it - I am just not very good debater - but that never seemed to hold me back.
And then, one day, I stopped.
Probably a combination of reasons, one being that I was outclassed in more than one argument, the other that I had a tendency to make jokes a little too hard - until they landed upon myself.
It helped, in this case, that I have always had a distaste of verbal conflict. Even today, I will walk out of rooms where a heated debate is happening. I hate arguments and I hate to listen to people argue.
Does that mean I miss a lot of discussion? Possibly. But it also means that I generally have a lot more peace and a lot less regrets in my life.
But there are people for whom such activities seem to be sport. They genuinely seem to enjoy the rough and tumble of online "discussion". And more power to them, as long as they keep it among themselves.
But it does make me wonder: at the end of the day, I suspect 90% or more of that will be with people they have never met and will never see, in a medium that in theory could, at any moment, evaporate. I grieve the loss of InterWeb friends that pass that I actually feel like I know in some fashion; what, I wonder, would be the realization be like to truly accept years of heated debate and arguments and comments were with (effectively) invisible strangers?
Arguments never appealed to me, easy to "walk on by" someone else starting those TB. Online arguing is like that old quote....never wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.......:)
ReplyDeleteNylon12, Many years ago the advisor in my major noted that I my "arguing" or "aggressive discussion" style was simply to rain down my version of the facts and step away. Hearing that from him, it changed how I approached my discussion with everyone and everything thing. I was being nearly as successful as I thought I was. Over time, I have learned that if I want to actual move things to where I want them, arguing is not the way.
DeleteTo your point, I at least find that even now when I may get "exercise", it is bringing me down, not bringing the other person up.
Argument vs discussion is a matter of attitude.
ReplyDeleteDiscussion can actually have facts to discuss. Arguments are mostly Opinion and when pressed for some facts (links please) they devolve into the "strawman argument" and belittling the other person.
Discussion IMPLIES that you are WILLING to change your mind and that perhaps Putin (as a wildly popular subject example) isn't actually Hitler or Stalin.
As Socrates said: “Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.”
This quote emphasizes the value of intellectual discourse and critical thinking. In a world dominated by social media, it’s a call to focus on ideas and constructive conversations rather than gossip and superficial chatter.
Wrestling with pigs is a good analogy and that phrase being offended by an internet comment is like walking down the sidewalk and seeing dog poop on it, and CHOOSING to step in it also fits.
As far as strangers, well have you never been surprised by the reaction of a longtime friend or lover? How well do we know even ourselves?
Talking to invisible strangers, well the Greeks had the Agora
SNIP The agora (/ˈæɡərə/; Ancient Greek: ἀγορά, romanized: agorá, meaning "market" in Modern Greek) was a central public space in ancient Greek city-states. The literal meaning of the word "agora" is "gathering place" or "assembly". The agora was the center of the athletic, artistic, business, social, spiritual, and political life in the city.
Modern America seems to have given that up. In the Colonial Times Churches and Coffee Houses served thusly.
If I recall correctly some discussions in history in such public places got quite "Spirited".
Michael - I actually thought about using Plato as a discussion point in the sense that he did discuss things - but so far as I recall, his recorded discussions are generally with people he at some level knew or was familiar with. The Athenian Agora was (and is) a rather small location for the sorts of events that happened there (we walked it in 2023).
Delete"Discussion IMPLIES that you are WILLING to change your mind." I agree with that statement in principle; however in point of fact I seldom if ever see it practiced anywhere in the main forum of discussion these days, the InterWeb. What I do see is either one of two things: Either a one sided echoing chamber where everyone agrees with each other, or facts and opinions (or facts masquerading as opinions) hurled about like a tennis match.
"As far as strangers, well have you never been surprised by the reaction of a longtime friend or lover? How well do we know even ourselves?" I have been surprised (many times) by such responses and even by my own (although less so than I used to be; I am gaining more insight into myself). But in that example, I have a relationships of some form or fashion with friends or family (or even myself) that can give a larger context to a conversation or reaction. With strangers on the InterWeb there is none of that: they are names and electrons on a page, who may or may not even be who they claim themselves to be. With friends and family and lovers I have something that transcends the discussion; strangers on the InterWeb are much more of a moment of walking into a bar or restaurant and having a sea of strangers looking up at you.
" In a world dominated by social media, it’s a call to focus on ideas and constructive conversations rather than gossip and superficial chatter." We certainly agree on this.
Sort of along Michael's line of reasoning, I do enjoy a good discussion of things but I'm finding that harder to find these days, at least in an online format. Way too many people take a single criticism personally as slamming "their guy" and then just want to argue every wrong that wasn't pertinent to the original discussion. Due to this, I find myself pulling back a lot like you TB. I would rather just live in peace and have discussions with those that are able to have rational ones such as yourself, or have them in more conducive formats like face to face.
ReplyDeleteEd - There are a handful of people that I can have an actual discussion with now on issues that potentially veer into territory where we disagree. Mostly these are folks of long acquaintance and have the ability to listen and withhold judgement or an immediate visceral response (to be fair, they are either in person or on the phone). Given the climate we have found ourselves in since at least 2000, at least for me anything outside a narrow band of commonly understand safe topics is not something I pick up with most people.
DeleteTo your point, I too would just rather live in peace.
I quit cold turkey when I realized that the exercise was usually pointless. I'm willing to discuss something and share information, but it seems most of the people I ran across just wanted to argue. In fact, my sister-in-law told me once that she loved to argue. I began to see how she always took the opposite point of view and I found discussions with her exhausting. On top of that, I tend to be too blunt, and most people don't care for that. So I often found myself being shut down. One of the most useful skills I've learned as an adult is to not take the bait.
ReplyDeleteLeigh - it often seems that way to me as well.l I have known very few people that argue for the sake of arguing alone, or at least they are not in my life for a very long period of time. I have never really understood the point of being opposed to a thing just because you enjoy the reactions of others.
DeleteLike you, I Have also rather painfully learned to not take the bait when it is offered up.
Some of us are strangers than others, but we are all here, mostly real. I wonder what AI will do to that concept in the future.
ReplyDeleteSandi, that is not an unreasonable question. I have heard of at least one case on Reddit, where bots were posting and arguing with bots. I can certainly see a day where blogs are generated by AI and then comments on the blog are put there by other AI.
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