Last week, Friend of this blog Old AF Sarge at Chant du Depart posted what essentially was an "Open Mic" post on a particular subject (war, in this case). The link is here if you are curious (again, not something we discuss generally), and the point of this post is not the subject of that post, but rather the content of the commentators.
This, in theory, was the sort of post where things can go horribly wrong: a potentially contentious subject, a "Go discuss" imperative, and (from what I could see) minimal editorial intervention. A total of 50 comments and responses.
Not one angry or contentious response.
Part of me - that vaguely sarcastic, ironic part of me that sometimes feels like the funny things that are funny in my head should be said out loud, which never works out well for me - thought about posting something along the lines of "What is this? Reasoned, rational debate among peers without anger or name calling? Heresy! What sort of site are you running, Sir?" (The better part of me restrained myself, of course). But for not posting it, it was true. Here, in essence, was actual discussion happening around a subject that can stir strong emotions (and language).
How, by the grace of God, did this happen?
We are in increasingly short supply of such things, in the electronic world and in the real world (Thankfully not at this site, of course. Every one here is exemplary). The ability to simply say "Here is a subject we may need to talk about" and have people actually talk about it from their point of views without everyone making ad hominem attacks or stating "You are a ______ (fill in the blank)" with no support is what, from all I can tell, passing for "debate" these days.
The whole thing is rather sad.
I am not the sort of person that reacts to this kind of environment well at all. Long ago, a college professor told me that I did not really debate, I simply put facts out there and assumed everyone saw things the way I did based on the evidence (to be fair, he was correct). And I certain cannot deal with the escalation in volume and body language when someone tries by verbal force to make the point they cannot make with logic.
If I had to picture us now, I almost see us as people that are rent by wounds not physical but verbal and instead of working to bind them up, continue to go on rending because at this point, there is nothing else we know how to do.
There is another side of course, the side represented by the fine discussion at Sarge's site, the part where people can be rent by wounds but people are respectful of rending others and in some cases are actively working to bind up those rents. They are not nearly as noticeable because (frankly) quiet is not as nearly as powerful as loud in the public arena.
The unfortunate reality of rent wounds is, of course, that one will actively bleed out at some point while those that have been quietly binding up those wounds will continue on, working quietly and quite often in silence and the background.
Because of the nature of Sarge and his posters there along with his wishes about invective (political and word wise) I really try to respect his wishes. Insulting someone is just a waste of typing time IMO. Trying to ADD something to the discussion is my goal but sometimes there's nothing there so no post. The posters there and here are pretty dang thoughtful and worth reading.
ReplyDeleteNylon12 - Your comment "I really try to respect his wishes" is arguably a significant part of it. True discussion and intellectual debate (in my humble opinion) involves not only debating, but having both respect and kindness for the individuals involved as well as respecting the "rules" of the house (my rules are a lot like Sarge's there). What we are rapidly reaching in society is either the "overwhelming volume and overtalking" or "not allowing debate at all", neither of which actually exchanges information - or honestly, builds any kind of common foundation or shared respect, something which any society needs to function.
DeleteI often find posts I would like to comment on but either have nothing to add, or the tone of conversation - while I agree with the original post - goes a place I do not endorse. Again, rules of the house - but not every comment needs a response.
I am fortunate that the posters here are the equal of Sarge's et al in that they are respectful and kind. Which is a testimony that civility still really does exist.
I think a lot of us (myself included) will post to convince people that my view is correct and others are wrong who contradict it. Your method makes more sense - here is how I see it, maybe you see if differently.
ReplyDeleteI've seen a lot of bloggers who do write 'Prove Me Wrong' posts, then get upset when a reader will disagree with them. You aren't one of them - Thank You for that. I learn a lot more from that, an open mind gives a lot more perspective.
I think they can be just different ways to arrive at the same answer: what is truth, what is the "correct" answer in the situation. But at least in my view, it is tone as much as content that matters. - I can be "right" but I can completely drive anyone away from my point by how I treat people in my argument and my responses. Ultimately, at least for myself, getting to a place where we can at least understand what the differences are, we can forge some kind of path forward. Too often the discussions seem more about "victory" than actual actionable progress.
DeleteThe "Prove Me Wrong" posts to me strike the same tone as walking into a bar and punching the first person you see - you are there for a fight, not to learn.
Thank you so much for being here. I do you that the Social Internet is working and we are all learning something (I sure am!).
I think the nature of blogging and bloggers certainly helps the odds of having a rational discussion without the noise I associate with other media platforms. I think it is because over time, we develop a knowledge of the blogger on the other end of the post akin to a personal relationship in real life, and so we would so as we tend to do in person, measure our responses. I find on other forums, like say a public Book of Face page where the people making comments don't know the other, it quickly escalates. I have always thought this is one of the reasons I'm drawn to this format. Of course it isn't always the case, as I've been drummed out of two different blogs for not toeing the line and participate in shaming others for having opposing views, but those are the minority.
ReplyDeleteEd - I think you are right - reading longer works makes one less likely to immediately react (not always, of course) than 140 symbol post or quick response on The Book of Face. That said, I think the relational part of it is even more important.
DeleteI have come to picture this sort of thing as a sort of virtual Agora, that Greek marketplace where the Greeks sold not only goods, but ideas. The ideas they discussed were done in the context not of the larger world but in the context of the polis, the small city state that anchored the Greek Archaic and Classical periods. Reading the dialogues of Socrates by Plato or Xenophon or the discussions of the later Stoics, there are with people they know: fellow citizens, disciples or learners. There is a relationship that enabled the discussion - which I would argue (and I think you are as well) enabled better discussions.
Your place is also an island of sanity in a contentious sea. I've had some commenters who wanted to be idiots, sent 'em packing I did.
ReplyDeleteThank you Sarge - as, frankly is yours as well. You do an excellent job of policing people who either there for a fight for no reason or just want to be disruptive.
DeleteFunny thing, at least for me: I do not go to sites where generally I know I will not fit in with the house rules or the tone of the comments. I have no idea why people would seek this out.
Your blog can be whatever you want it to be TB. It can be a restrained tea party for old ladies, a meeting place for like minded men, or a place to blow off steam. My blog is all those things and even degenerates into a neurally divergent pie fight on occasion… and I love it! Mind you…I’ve developed a very thick skin in recent years. I love the geniuses, I love the tards… Geniuses and pooh-flinging monkeys are equally entertaining for me. It’s one of the reasons I don’t post much here anymore…I don’t want to spill my wine or blood on the carpet - or anyone else’s for that matter! I am not a man to put on contrived airs of nobility, intellect or gentrification.
ReplyDelete😂👍
But I always stop by to see that the tofts have to say. Hope you’re having a great new year TB.
Glen - You are right of course; blogs can be anything that they are desired to be. The important thing to me - and you yourself demonstrate this - that as long as we abide by the rules of the house for that blog, we can all get along just fine. I deeply appreciate the fact that you run yours as you do and yet you are willing to keep to the rules here (although really? Wine off the carpet? Are we not comrades?).
DeleteThanks for stopping by and I hope your New Year is going swimmingly and not buried in snow (I think of you in Winter often).
After being directed he by OldAFSarg and read your post and the responses, I'll add my ha'penny (tuppence would be putting too much value on it), In the end, once the dust has settled from the barroom brawl of spirited comradely discussion, the ears sewn back on, and eyeballs replaced in their sockets, we need to be able to sit down with our pints and laugh about what a fine thing it was, we should do it again.
ReplyDeleteDon't take things on the screen personally. A lot of nuance is lost when reading the bare words on a screen. There is no intonation, facial expression, or body language to read to help give context. To paraphrase a meme I once saw, The gulf of difference in meaning between "horse play" and "pony play" can make discernment of true meaning problematic without full context.
Joe L - Thanks for taking the time to wander over and comment. I appreciate it.
DeleteYou raise a good point about not taking things personally on the screen, and likely more than often enough I do. At the same time, words mean things and how they are phrased mean things. I can either say "I think you are wrong for these reasons" or "You (fill in the blank) how wrong can you be?" Both essentially express the same sentiment but depending on my relationship with the speaker I will react differently: to a close friend or a long time commenter here, I would likely take it in the spirit it was likely given; if it was someone I did not know or just came out of the blue I would assume they are using the words because they mean them as I have no other context other than you may think I am really an idiot (It may be a fair opinion of me, of course).
But as you say, we could all benefit more from being willing to sit down afterward and carry on with a pint or other drink of our choice. Often we forget what makes similar is more than makes us different.
Again, many thanks for stopping by and taking the time to comment.
I like all kinds of music. My phone totes from Marty Robbins to Marilyn Manson. Bagpipes, my family knows they must be played at my funeral. Pachelbells cannon in D major as well as many other classics are good as well, especially Vagner's pay war op music.
ReplyDeleteBear Claw
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DeleteBC - Maybe this comment was intended for Sarge's discussion of music today on his blog?
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